Jordan Lukins is an Assistant Teaching Professor in the Department of Teacher Education and Learning Sciences at North Carolina State University. A former special educator, Jordan teaches introductory courses on disability for undergraduate general education majors as well as special education methods courses at the graduate level. Her scholarly interests include understanding how pre-service teachers develop critical perspectives about disability and inclusion and improving the collaborative preparation of general and special educators. Jordan is also actively involved in developing and disseminating open educational resources with the IRIS Center and holds leadership roles in the Council for Exceptional Children and the Teacher Education Division.
This episode features an interview with Dr. Jordan Lukins, an Assistant Teaching Professor of Elementary and Special Education at North Carolina State University. Dr. Lukins shares her experience applying for her non-tenure track position (also known as professional track). She explains what non-tenure track positions are, what kinds of responsibilities they typically include, tips for negotiation, and how the promotion process works. We also discuss preparing a teaching demonstration and what to expect from the teaching demonstration process. You can learn more about Dr. Lukins and connect with her on Twitter @Jmlukins.
Transcript
NOTE: This podcast was transcribed by a free tool called Otter.ai. Please forgive any typos or errors.
Danika Pfeiffer
Hi Jordan, thanks so much for joining us today.
Jordan Lukins
All right, thanks for inviting me.
Danika Pfeiffer
Yeah, it’s great to have you here. And I’m really excited because you are one of the guests on this season who is not a speech language pathologist and I’ve really been trying to bring on people that are from other professions. So really excited to have you here. Can you start by telling us a little bit about you growing up before you started your academic journey?
Jordan Lukins
So I grew up in North Carolina, just about an hour and a half away from where I live now. And I was that kid who always knew I was going to be a teacher. I grew up loving school, my sister and I played school with our dolls and our stuffed animals. So that was just sort of always planned for me. I ended up making some really amazing friends with disabilities in middle school, and that was when everything started pointing me towards special education. So I got my undergraduate degree in special education and elementary education, started teaching in a self contained classroom for autistic students. And I absolutely loved that job. I always thought I was going to be that teacher who stayed in the classroom for you know, 30 plus years, but I ended up falling into some leadership roles pretty early on in my career, and I transitioned into a district level specialist position where I was able to coach teachers and do a lot of professional development. And I really developed a passion for training and supporting teachers and that ultimately pursuing a PhD.
Danika Pfeiffer
Wow, that’s awesome. That’s great experience. I’m sure that you can use a lot of that now. It’s so funny because a lot of SLPs that I’ve talked to have also said that teaching was something they were really passionate about when they were young and they played school as well. So it’s funny that this is coming up as a common theme. What kind of Ph D program did you do?
Jordan Lukins
So I did a pretty research intensive PhD program. My PhD is in education with a focus on applied developmental sciences and special education from UNC Chapel Hill. So an R1 University. Lots of high level research expectations within that. Also a pretty broad view of education as well as kind of that developmental science side which was an interesting angles.
Danika Pfeiffer
Okay, wow. And is the goal of that program to become a faculty member or what does it really train people to do?
Jordan Lukins
Yeah, I’d say it’s one of those R1 PhD programs that’s kind of pointing you towards that tenure track, high level research output position.
Danika Pfeiffer
Okay. And is that kind of what you were thinking as you were ending your time in your Ph. D program that you wanted? To do or were you thinking about something else?
Jordan Lukins
Not at all. I will say I went to I loved my program. I had a great experience in my program. I didn’t know anything about academia. When I got into getting a PhD. I thought you know if I want to teach teachers, I need a PhD. And UNC Chapel Hill was close to me and had a really great reputation and I got funding there. So I went there. I didn’t shop around, I didn’t really, you know, look into a lot of different programs and kind of compare them to each other. I just sort of thought a PhD was a PhD. And I realized as I went through the program, you know, that’s really not the case. There are different you know, you can get different focus areas, you get different programs that are sort of pointing you in different directions. Luckily, my advisor was very supportive of me wanting to go into teacher preparation, knowing that teaching was my passion and was what I really wanted to do. I like to research I was good at research, I think, but it wasn’t exactly the pathway that I wanted to follow. So luckily, I had a lot of support in that and as I entered the job market, it was really with an eye towards those physicians that were going to allow me to teach you through teachers,
Danika Pfeiffer
okay. Okay. And when in your PhD program, did you go on the job market?
Jordan Lukins
I went on the job market in fall of 2021 time. That was a year before basically a year before I defended my dissertation. I finished up the following summer. Okay, so that last year,
Danika Pfeiffer
okay. And you were looking for positions where you could work in academia but really focused on teaching and training future teachers. Okay, and so how did that process unfold for you of applying for positions?
Jordan Lukins
Ah, it was a long, long process. Like I said, the 2020 2021 school year academic year, rough time to be on the job market. It was slim pickins for positions that were out there then as you know, yes. So it was it was slow to get started. I had sort of, you know, heard about job market and how it would go and when I might start applying and things weren’t open early on. And so it really I was really on the job market the whole year. I didn’t accept my job until July and started in August. So
Danika Pfeiffer
I think that’s good for people to know that I think a lot of people might think once the fall comes, you started applying then the jobs are just gonna keep popping up. And the process is quick, but no, everyone has their own timeline to so the job might not even be posted until the spring. And these processes can look really different from school to school. Yes, very true. And you ultimately ended up in a non tenure track position. Can you talk about what those are and how they’re different from tenure track positions?
Jordan Lukins
Sure. So non tenure track. It’s one of those things that’s hard to define because it’s really defined by what it’s not. As the name suggests, it’s a position that doesn’t have a pathway to tenure at sort of an umbrella level. I guess that does include people like adjunct faculty and instructors and lecturers, but there’s also this move towards more non tenure track faculty positions that are full time and more stable, usually require a PhD or an MD. They just don’t lead to tenure. So at my university, they’ve actually stopped using non tenure track as the descriptor they use professional track. They’ve decided to stop defining it by what it’s not so within that professional track. Most faculty like me are considered teaching professors. So our primary responsibility is for teaching classes. There’s also a research professor track that mostly does research without teaching, and there’s clinical faculty, which I think is probably a role that shows up more in your field who give more of that clinical supervision, maybe even some direct service. So it’s really a pathway that focuses much more on one realm of that faculty effort and responsibility as opposed to tenure track focusing kind of broadly, you’re expected to teach and do high level research. As far as kind of logistical differences. I think it depends a lot on the structures that each university has. So their contracts positions, the length of that contract can vary. I’m on a three year contract, I’ll eventually have the opportunity to move to five year contracts, which I think might be surprising to some people who might think that these are really kind of precarious year year contracts. But I feel like I do have a good amount of stability within that. Three to five year contract. There’s also a process for promotion on the professional tracks. So I will be able to go up for promotion from assistant teaching professor to associate and eventually to full professor it just won’t come with the protections of tenure along with it.
Danika Pfeiffer
Okay, yeah, but a lot of people don’t realize that they can still go through the promotion process. Were there guidelines from your university about that, that you were able to see when you were applying?
Jordan Lukins
Yes, thankfully, they shared all of that with me pretty early on in the interview process, because I think there is a lot of variance University University in terms of how they handle these positions. And I think it’s changing pretty rapidly with places starting to adopt more things like opportunities for promotion and longer term contracts. So it’s definitely something if it’s not shared with you, if you’re looking at a position like this, I think people really need to dig into the website or reach out and ask kind of what those things look like for these positions.
Danika Pfeiffer
Absolutely. And I reached out to you and I was on the job market and applying for a non tenure track position and you were so helpful. In helping guide me through this. And that was one of the things that I had asked for, and in my experience, it was much more teaching heavy and they were really focused on teaching evaluations, making sure that I was attending professional development to improve my teaching. Is that kind of the things that are valued there for your promotion?
Jordan Lukins
Yeah, um, definitely those of course evaluations, some administrative things. So I do have some responsibility over our add on licensure program and special education. So sort of the output from that. My contract rates my responsibility down is 70% teaching 20% service and 10% research. So obviously, it’s it’s very heavily focused on the teaching. And so when I’m up for contract renewal when I’m up for promotion, eventually they’re going to be looking primarily at those teaching areas.
Danika Pfeiffer
Okay, that makes a lot of sense. And what are your roles and responsibilities in your position? I’m sure there’s more than just the classroom teaching that is lumped under this teaching umbrella.
Jordan Lukins
As far as teaching, kind of in practice, what that 70% Looks like is I have a four three teaching load. So I teach four courses in the fall and three in the spring. I teach in our undergraduate elementary education program, I teach special education that this class is online for our graduate program. Like I mentioned, I also helped coordinate that add on Special Education licensure program for our elementary ed majors. Last year, I swapped out some courses to do some student teaching supervision. So I was out in local schools, doing observations and providing coaching and all that as part of my teaching responsibilities. So there’s definitely flexibility in terms of what that looks like this upcoming year. I’m going to be teaching much more. I’m going to do four courses in the fall and three courses in the spring so it will be pretty focused on that that classroom. instruction piece for this year.
Danika Pfeiffer
Okay, which is what you were really looking for. It sounds like when you went on the job market was something where you’d have all these teaching opportunities,
Jordan Lukins
right? Yes. And I will say within that too, you know, I teach. I’ll be teaching four courses in the fall but it’s only two different classes. I have three sections of the same class oil we have two preps. So that is very helpful. Sometimes people hear like teaching for classes and think, for different classes. So another thing to think about when you’re looking at positions that have a higher teaching load is like okay, but how many preps does that actually
Danika Pfeiffer
that makes a big difference. And then you said, you also have some time dedicated to research. What does that look like for you?
Jordan Lukins
Yeah, so it’s a it’s a pretty small piece of the pie, but it’s there. There’s definitely I’m at an r1 University. So there is still an expectation that everybody is engaged in some sort of research. For me it overlaps a lot with my teaching, which is cool. So I am doing some work in sort of the Scholarship of Teaching and Learning side of things. I’m doing a project this fall looking at the impact of my own teaching practices on the pre service teachers that I’m teaching. So I’m going to do a pre and post course survey and kind of look at change over the semester, which is nice that I can do research to impact the fields that also impacts my own teaching and can help me be a better teacher. And then I also get to just sort of take on an assisting kind of role on other people’s research projects. So right now I’m a second coder on a qualitative study that I’ve been involved with, so I don’t have pressures of being the PII or anything. I didn’t have to write the IRB, but I do still get to be involved and help out with getting that coding done doing the manuscript written, which is a nice, it’s a nice role for me. I appreciate that kind of role.
Danika Pfeiffer
That’s great. And how about the service piece? What does that look like?
Jordan Lukins
Very similar to a tenure track position in terms of kind of what those expectations are so expected to serve on committees for the college and for the university service to the field. So I’m involved in professional organizations. I have some leadership roles there. Were also my university is also a land grant institutions. So there’s a quite an expectation that we are engaging in service to the state of North Carolina as well so they really expect everyone to be out supporting teachers in schools, so giving professional development in local districts or partnering with teachers and schools. A lot of times that through research projects, but also just that expectation of giving back to the state in addition to giving back to the larger field, which was different for me I didn’t I didn’t really know that kind of mission of a land grant university until I ended up that one.
Danika Pfeiffer
Yeah, that seems really great. The open official on both sides.
Jordan Lukins
It’s great, and as a North Carolinian myself, I appreciate. You know, I feel very connected to that. Idea.
Danika Pfeiffer
That’s awesome. What do you see as some of the benefits of being in a position like this? That’s non tenure track or on the professional track?
Jordan Lukins
Yeah, I mean, for me, it’s that I get to focus on what I want, which is to chase. So I think the unfortunate reality of a lot I mean, it doesn’t have to be unfortunate. It would be unfortunate for me that a lot of tenure track positions, those research responsibilities really take precedence over the teaching. Sometimes that’s stated sometimes that’s unsated but it’s really the expectation in some places, so I appreciate not having that high pressure for research productivity that’s kind of competing against my teaching. I think it’s really hard to be great at both teaching and research and I’m a perfectionist, and I think being pulled in both of those directions would be tough. For me. So this position, I think, actually helps me maintain some work life balance, which I know some people will go but you’re teaching seven classes a year how that seems like a lot, but because of the way that the balance is set up. I like being able to focus on one instead of feeling like I need to be graded both.
Danika Pfeiffer
Yeah, and it seems like there would be a lot more that’s in your control in this kind of position. When you have things that are bound to research and all the deadlines and grants that you may or may not win, there’s a lot of uncertainty, but with teaching, you can plan your own courses and you can update them as you want to and change assignments when you want to. So I could see that as potentially being a nice benefit too.
Jordan Lukins
That’s a good point. I really hadn’t thought about level of control. But you’re so right when you’re talking about grants and waiting on you know research publication reviews, which I’m still in the middle of some of that too. And yeah, none of that you don’t control any of that time.
Danika Pfeiffer
No, you don’t. Have you encountered any drawbacks in being in this type of position.
Jordan Lukins
The obvious answer for a drawback is that I don’t have a shot at tenure and the benefits that come with that. I am luckily at an institution where I feel very respected as a professional track faculty member. I know that that’s not necessarily the case everywhere. You know, there are places that aren’t offering multi year contracts and the most and opportunities for these sorts of positions and where people do feel like they’re expendable. So, you know, I think you just have to be very aware of kind of how these positions are structured and set up at the specific university that you’re looking at. For me, it’s worked out to be really a pretty perfect position for what I was looking for and wanting to do and I feel secure in what I have here and that my positions needed. They need people to teach these classes so you know, I think for me, personally not a lot of drawbacks, but I know that there are some other people at other institutions that have certainly found some some issues with how that structure for them.
Danika Pfeiffer
Yeah, that makes sense. I could see how it could vary from place to place depending on the department dynamics and things like that. Absolutely. What was the interview process like for you for this position?
Jordan Lukins
For this position, it was pretty similar actually to some of the interview processes that I went through for tenure track positions, but at smaller teaching focus universities. So I applied for, you know, non tenure track positions like I ended up in, I also applied for those tenure track jobs, that kind of regional universities where the research expectations weren’t quite as high. And so in both cases, it was you know, the initial screener interview everything was virtual for me because of when I was on the market. So the initial screener interview and then potentially if I made it to the next round the the finalist rounds of more in depth interviews, interviews with themes as well as the search committee. And maybe well for these for the non tenure track positions. I did a teaching demonstration instead of a job talk.
Danika Pfeiffer
Okay, gotcha. So similar process but more focused on teaching. Right fair to say yeah. And most non tenure track positions require a teaching demonstration similar to your experience, can you give us an explanation of what those are?
Jordan Lukins
Sure. So you know, if you’re looking at a tenure track job, you’re usually going to give a job talk about your research to really sell the committee and the other faculty on why you’re an expert in that area for teaching focus positions. And I experienced this both for non tenure track positions and for tenure track positions that smaller, more teaching focused universities. You’ll give a teaching demonstration to sort of sell your teaching ability. So essentially, for teaching demo, I taught a short lesson to either the hiring committee or a group of faculty that were invited to attend. So I’ve heard of some people doing teaching demos with actual students. I interviewed over the summer, and even I had an interview that I did a teaching demo for that wasn’t over the summer. I never taught students I always taught faculty that can vary. I think some places will invite their students to a teaching demo.
Danika Pfeiffer
Yeah, I had that experience. I had both experiences some with students and some without,
Jordan Lukins
okay, it’s a different field. Definitely. faculty who are like, you know, bigwigs in the field and tenured professors. Is that a little awkward? Yes. So you know, when I did teaching demos, they were usually 30 to 45 minute ones that I remember they helped me choose my topic. They gave me a course description, maybe some course objectives from one of the classes that I would probably be teaching if I got the job and said design a lesson and teach us for 30 minutes. So it was we’re on Zoom. So it just like if I was teaching a class on Zoom, I had my slides I did a little bit of lecturing, I had some opportunities to engage my quote unquote students who were faculty and you know, just really the goal is to show off your teaching ability.
Danika Pfeiffer
Yes. And there’s a lot of different ways you can do that with technology these days. Do you have advice on how much technology to incorporate in these presentations?
Jordan Lukins
Yeah, oh, that’s a great question. I have no choice. But I think, I don’t know moving forward. You know, how much of this is going to continue to be zoom days and how much more people are actually going out to universities for second round. Interviews. But I think use technology to your advantage. Don’t use technology for the sake of technology, but use it the way that you would use it in a class to engage students. So I knew it was a teaching demo. It wasn’t a lecture. So I needed to show off how I teach regularly, which is not to stand up and lecture at a glass for an entire class period. And I don’t think that’s what they want to see. So whether it’s using technology or not, I think it’s really important to build in those small activities, those those ways to get that you get students involved when you’re actually teaching within a teaching demo. So you know, when I did a teaching demo on Zoom, I did a little activity where I had everyone respond to questions using emojis they had to do a thumbs up or a thumbs down. A low stakes way to get people involved. I wasn’t trying to lead an entire discussion or anything, but just a way to get the attendees at the teaching demo. active and involved with same way I would in my class. I used an exit ticket at the end because that’s something I use regularly. The other thing that I did I tell people a lot of times I think we talked about this, like a lot of what I do in my classes when I’m actually teaching is case studies and application activities and small group work and so I wanted to demonstrate that but I only have 30 minutes and I was like I don’t want to send them into a zoom breakout room for 15 minutes to do something and they’re not really seeing me teach right. So what I did instead was add a slide towards the end. Instead if I was teaching this in a full class session, here’s how we would spend the next 30 to 45 minutes and describe what that activity would be. You know, I went back and forth on whether or not I thought that was the right way to do it. Because I was like, I’m sort of breaking that fourth wall from being in character of being the teacher but I think that’s okay. To draw attention to something that you would ordinarily do when you are teaching, but you don’t have time to do it in the demo itself.
Danika Pfeiffer
Right. I think that faculty would appreciate that because then they get to hear a little bit more about what you would do in a full length class session and they can tell that you thought about it. You are really invested in this presentation. So to me that I really liked that idea. And I took that suggestion in my own teaching demo. And for me, I had both experiences where I was given a topic that I had to present on and others where they just told me like similar to you. Here’s the course in some of our objectives and the topics that we cover you choose. And I think when it’s up to you to choose, that feels really stressful in the moment as you’re preparing for these interviews. Do you have any advice on how to choose a topic
Jordan Lukins
choose something that you’ve taught before and feel really confident in being able to teach even if you have some, some slides and activities that you’ve already done? Because the other thing is your turnaround is going to be quick for pulling this together. It’s not like you’re going to have a month leeway most of the time to you know create this really beautiful teaching demonstration. You might only have a couple of weeks between getting asked or even only a week for, you know, scheduling that second round interview and then actually being there and doing it. So if you have something that you’ve done in a workshop before the caution that I would put on that is you know, don’t don’t just pull out like a conference presentation that you did that might be very luxury. But if it’s something that that you’ve taught before and feel really comfortable with that’s going to come across a lot better than you know, looking at and going oh, what’s what’s the most impressive topic or something that I can teach within this list of options that they’ve given me go with go with what’s comfortable to you, so that you can really show off your your skills?
Danika Pfeiffer
Yes, definitely. So it sounds like some of the main things you want to have your objectives in there. You want to have some lecture but also engagement pieces in there. And you mentioned your exit ticket as a way to kind of bridge what you were talking about in that lesson to the potential next lesson. Any other key parts that you think people should think about, including
Jordan Lukins
that covered it, I think just Yeah, thinking about how you can sort of shrink down everything that you would ideally do in the class session into a shorter time period and sort of hit on all of those areas.
Danika Pfeiffer
Yeah, I think it’s it’s a really nice way for faculty that are interviewing you to see your personality and what you would be like in the classroom, so I remember it feeling really stressful in the moment, but when you have it together, I think you can also use some pieces of that for other things in the future, which is nice.
Jordan Lukins
Absolutely. Yeah. I think the other thing that did come to mind is knowing ahead of time, like why you’re doing what you’re doing in your teaching demo. I don’t know what what your experience was, but all the teaching demos that I did, they also had a q&a afterward. Yes, so the faculty could ask questions about what you did in this lesson, or sort of your broader teaching philosophy. So being prepared for that q&a, to be able to say, you know, oh, I’ve built in this activity for this reason, this is why I would do the things that I did in this teaching. demo today. Because you will have an opportunity to sort of explain those things a little bit further. So having that prepared as
Danika Pfeiffer
well. That’s a great point. Yes. The q&a that comes afterwards. I in my experience, I had students asking questions during that time as well as faculty members, and the questions can really vary about the details of what was on your slides to just how you presented it, like you said, your teaching philosophy. So I think you should be prepared for a full range of questions. I remember having one faculty member really talking about my prosody, and the way that I was presenting and how my voice intonation was used in certain moments, and why did I choose to do it that way? So it was a very nitpicky question. And then other questions from students were just to clarify things on slides. So there was really a wide variety of questions. That was asked
Jordan Lukins
only in an SLP start talking about your process.
Danika Pfeiffer
I know I remember they asked like, did you do that intentionally? And I said I did because I’m a speech language pathologist. And I know this is really helpful. And I was modeling how to do a shared book reading activity. And I was saying how it was really helpful in helping children learn these key words, but I really wasn’t prepared for that level of detail. So I think it’s good to know that the questions can vary in level of detail how did the negotiation process work for this kind of position? I think people might wonder what’s appropriate to ask for and what’s not when you’re negotiating for this kind of position.
Jordan Lukins
Yeah, negotiation as a whole was a foreign concept to me. I came out of teaching in the public school system where you take what you get. There’s, you know, there’s not negotiating in the same way but that that there is here. So that was all going on to the job market. That was one of the things that I felt least prepared for and really didn’t know what to expect around that. So negotiation is possible for non tenure track positions. My experience was you I have less negotiating power for this position than I would have for a tenure track role. I was told that salary wasn’t negotiable because it was a contract position. The job posting listed the salary, which often doesn’t happen for academic positions. And so I was told, you know, the advertised salaries salary, we can’t negotiate on that. Unfortunately, I I also didn’t really have like startup needs that I could really justify asking for the way that you might for a research intensive position. I didn’t get a course release. I didn’t ask for a course release. You know, the justification for that, usually that you need time to establish, establish a research program, and I was being hired to teach so they weren’t, we weren’t really going to talk about course releases, but I did that. You know, we talked earlier about number of preps. That was a discussion that we had after I got the offer, kind of asking about that course load getting an assurance that I would only have two different preps per semester for my first year, so I wouldn’t be prepping a lot of new classes. I did get money for relocation expenses, which I think is fairly typical in negotiation to make sure you’re getting that and the other thing that was offered I didn’t know to ask for it. So thankfully it was offered when I asked about salary and was told that it wasn’t that that was not something that was negotiable, they said but something that we can offer you is a three week summer contract for the summer. Before the position started to basically compensate me for course prep for that first year to see when I’m on a nine month contract. And my start date was actually on the first day of classes for students. So it was August 16. And classes started August 16. And obviously, I wasn’t going to wait to start working until the first day. I was going to prep those courses whether or not I was getting paid for it. So the fact that they offered that, you know, we can’t we can’t raise your salary, but we can at least compensate you for the work that we know that you’re going to do before you start as a full time faculty member. So I tell people that now to think about asking for that, especially if you’re in a teaching really teaching heavy position that it’s going to take time to get prepared for those classes and if you’re in a situation that most of us are in if we’re on nine or 10 month contracts where you’re really not starting until right when classes start if they can, you know give you a little something extra for that time right before you get started. So I’m glad they offered that one.
Danika Pfeiffer
Yeah, no, that’s wonderful. I’m currently in that phase of time where I’m just prepping, but my contract hasn’t started yet. And so I really see the value of that. Now. Two great things to ask.
Jordan Lukins
One of those things in academia just doesn’t make sense.
Danika Pfeiffer
No, it doesn’t know but we all just go along with it. And you
Jordan Lukins
know, I’m prepping my courses for the fall. And I’m not technically it’s not part of my contracted time, but it’s what we do in the summers now. So
Danika Pfeiffer
yes, yes, you get into that routine. I was also negotiating for a non tenure track position. And some of the other things that I was able to negotiate for were things like professional development costs. So we have our annual dues for our national organization. So that’s something that people that maybe are in CSD, that’s something that they might be able to ask for for a non tenure track position. And in my experience, I was offered a little bit of startup funds about $5,000. So it wasn’t nothing but it was something to get me going on little research projects that I potentially wanted to do with the university. So I think it can vary a little bit from place to place.
Jordan Lukins
Yeah, some of it too was things like I said that I just didn’t feel like I needed to negotiate for you. Professional development was one of those that they sort of they offered when it was a really good offer, I’ll say because it was you know, all of our faculty, whether they’re tenure track or professional track, get X number of dollars each year for conference, travel, professional development, whatever you choose to put that towards. And so that’s another thing just thinking about how non tenure track or professional track is sort of viewed and valued within the university. There are places where I think probably non tenure track are not offered the same conference travel amount. And so that might be something to ask the negotiation, or just to consider in sort of how that role is viewed at that particular university.
Danika Pfeiffer
Definitely. Great advice. And you talked a little bit earlier about how the timeline of the search went on through July so that’s about nine months or so maybe a little bit more of being on the job market Did you face any challenges besides the pandemic happening during this time when you were on the job market?
Jordan Lukins
Just balancing being on the job market and doing a dissertation at the same time and I you know that’s that’s the thing no matter what you’re applying for, no matter what you’re looking at. If you’re doing it at the same time that you’re writing a dissertation it is it’s a lot of switching back and forth in how you’re thinking and getting used to in these interviews. You know, selling yourself I think we don’t do that in PhD programs and you think about how you’re growing yourself and then you go to these interviews and need to say like I am the expert, I am the one you need to hire Yes. And for for the non tenure track jobs in particular I will say I was so in that headspace of my dissertation. And then these interviews in these positions were so focused on teaching, which I wasn’t doing right then that I had to do a lot of preparing and a lot of realizing like they don’t care about my dissertation. They didn’t ask about my dissertation for this job that I ended up taking, like, nobody wanted me to talk about my dissertation study, which makes sense for the type of job that it was. But it was sort of odd to get out of the interview and be like, gosh, this thing that is like taking over my life right now. We’re not even talking. Yes, that is that headspace is an interesting place to be in what you’re talking about.
Danika Pfeiffer
Yeah, that is really interesting when you think about it, because the PhD is required for a lot of these positions, but then to not be asked about your dissertation or what research you’ve done. It seems almost silly, you know? Right. Wow. Finally, final question here. Do you have any last advice for those that are going on the job market this year and debating whether or not they want to apply for a professional track? or non tenure track position?
Jordan Lukins
So the job markets weird. That’s my advice. There’s there’s not enough tenure track jobs for everyone graduating from a Ph. D. program. I think we know this, that that this is the way that academia is right now. We’re graduating more people than there are tenure track jobs. So I would say don’t automatically rule something out just because it’s not on the tenure track. Basing a decision to apply for something or not based only on that one descriptor, I think is a little short sighted. So you know, I say look at every position as an individual position, look at their responsibilities, especially if you’re if you really prefer one area. Like I really wanted to focus on teaching. There’s also non tenure track jobs that are more research focused, we have a line that is for research faculty who are pretty much only doing research and not teaching or you know, those clinical positions. So is that something that feels like it might be a good fit? I think looking at the posting thinking about doing your research. I think every every job that you are considering applying for you’re obviously going to do your research on the university position, find out everything you can about it. And so for a non tenure track position, look into their policies, see how long their contracts are for see if they offer those opportunities for promotion. If you can’t find that information, ask the search committee. See if you can get a feel for what the culture is like around non tenure track positions. But keeping an open mind thinking about the position holistically, not just as tenure track or non tenure track, but really what what would it feel like and be like to be in this position, and then go from there and don’t write it off right away? Even if you’ve always sort of thought that tenure track was going to be the direction you’d go in.
Danika Pfeiffer
Yeah, absolutely. And as you mentioned earlier, there’s more and more of these positions popping up now. So it might seem like Oh, I’m not really sure there’s not very many of them right now. But there’s definitely more coming in the field. And it’s going to become more of the norm, that this is an option and that people are in these kinds of positions with tenure going away and a lot of institutions. So I think that’s great to keep an open mind when you’re going on the market.
Jordan Lukins
I also always give a little piece of advice for friends who are on the tenure track. We who are not on the tenure track really appreciate the support of those who are and who can, you know, have the protections of tenure I have some great colleagues who are really willing to advocate for professional track faculty, because they have those protections. And so they’ll speak up and make sure that that respect is there that we’re you know, getting treated fairly and equally to tenure track colleagues. So that is that is very appreciative for folks who don’t even end up in these roles, but end up working alongside of us.
Danika Pfeiffer
I’m so glad you brought that up. That’s great for others to think about and just be aware of because there are these various dynamics within departments. So that’s a really great thing to keep in mind. All right, well, I’m just gonna wrap up here with a couple of questions that I asked everyone that comes on. These are the rapid fire questions, and the first one is what is one resource that you couldn’t live without? The IRS center Oh, great. Can you talk about that a
Jordan Lukins
little bit? Sure. So I actually do some contract work within so I’m a little bit biased. But the iris Center is a technical assistance and dissemination center that’s funded by the Office of Special Education Programs, and they develop and disseminate open educational resources. A lot of people know them for their modules, but they also have case studies and activities and information briefs on all sorts of topics related to teaching students who are struggling learners who have disabilities, and I use it in all of my courses. And it’s it’s just really helpful resources for anyone who’s teaching teachers or anyone who’s going to work with that population of students.
Danika Pfeiffer
Awesome. That’s a great thing for SLPs to be aware of as well. What has been a defining moment in your academic journey.
Jordan Lukins
I’m gonna say the first opportunity that I had to teach an undergraduate course as an instructor of record. I was able to do it early in my Ph. D. program because I was outspoken about wanting to teach so the fall of my second year in my PhD, I was able to be the instructor of record for an undergraduate course and take some responsibility for kind of overhauling the syllabus and changing the perspective we were teaching from and that was sort of my first taste of really what teaching a university level course was going to be like, and that just sort of solidified that I was doing the right thing and I was heading in the right direction.
Danika Pfeiffer
Awesome. What is one thing on your professional bucket list?
Jordan Lukins
This doesn’t feel like a big thing. But I am very much looking forward to when I have an opportunity to develop my own course from scratch. So you know, I’ve kind of worked off of what’s existing in the program adapted some syllabi, but I think it’ll be really fun when I get to a point that I can take a seminar course or something, and just develop it around when I want to develop it around. Yeah,
Danika Pfeiffer
Definitely. I’m sure with all your experiences that that would be. I feel like you’d be really great at that. And what has been your favorite part about your job?
Jordan Lukins
Students, just undergrads. Honestly, undergrads get a bad rap for a lot of people. I’m working with undergrads teaching right now and a lot of related fields. are a hard place to be getting to know students who are they know what they’re getting into, and they’re still excited about it, and they’re passionate about it. And that’s infectious and that’s, I think, what we need and we need to support so the students have been
Danika Pfeiffer
Great. And lastly, how can people connect with you or learn more about you?
Jordan Lukins
I am incredibly active on Twitter. Please find me I’m at Jacob Lukens on Twitter. I call Twitter my digital soapbox, so
Danika Pfeiffer
And you’re always sharing very useful tips, especially about teaching and teaching positions. so I know I really appreciate that great networking tool. Yes, absolutely. All right. I will put that in the show notes so people can find you and connect with you. Thank you so much for spending some time with me.
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